Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Hol' up here, is Marissa talking smack about Pride and Arrogance being the root of suffering again?

1:51 AM

Disregard humility! Acquire glorious self-actualization!

1:53 AM

Those other ones suck, though I'll give you that.

Zen

Hol' up here, is Marissa talking smack about Pride and Arrogance being the root of suffering again?

Not the root, just one of the 5 symptoms, albeit the mildest one. Believing that Im the author of my thoughts, speech, decisions and actions, and believing that pleasant outcomes make me whole

I actually don't think arrogance by itself ever causes suffering. Those who are blindly arrogant do not suffer because of it - it's actively pleasant. I've brought up stoicism numerous times but I think it again applies here: The issue is belief in something which is false and not acknowledging that. That isn't what arrogance is - even blind arrogance isn't that because it can still be based on something tangible but held without question. Narcissists do not experience suffering as a result of their narcissism - they experience suffering as a result their expectations being dashed, and their perpetual fear of being pushed away hence the need to control, which is already covered by the other four principles you have provided. I quite strongly think that a lack of pride is actually what causes suffering. A lack of surety in your self and your beliefs causes questioning - which is often inherently neurotic. (edited)

Questioning your beliefs is the only way suffering can come to an end. And even though pride/arrogance can feel pleasant (so can expectation, e. g. making a detailed plan for how your vacation needs to go) it results from a feeling of "I can only feel good about myself when Ive achieved certain outcomes." Arrogance can also manifest as "you should love me for what Ive achieved" if someone else doesnt approve of "your" accomplishments @Zen (edited)

I'm so happy that you two made #metaphysics into actually talking about metaphysics when it was originally intended as a quarantine zone for parapsychology wacko ghost astral projection crystal healing talk

That's not what arrogance is. That's expectation. Pride is a sense of personal accomplishment it has nothing to do with what you expect. It's possible for me to believe I am the smartest man in the world and have no expectations for how they affects people's of people's responses to me.

3:07 PM

Questioning your beliefs... is suffering.

3:07 PM

I don't know why you would say otherwise.

3:07 PM

Uncertainty is suffering. Cognitive dissonance is suffering.

If you dont think arrogance includes a component of "I deserve to be approved of for what Ive done" I guess its a semantical disagreement? In any case, I agree that feeling a sense of accomplishment ("wow, something really nice happened through me") is not inherently suffering. Its suffering when it becomes a narrative carried on in time, aka "no one is ever gonna read my masterpiece novel, people are incapable of appreciating true art" etc. As far as questioning beliefs, suffering is the result of believing things in an absolute way rather than recognizing that your life experience is completely subjective. Specifically, it results from believing that people are independent agents rather than complex machines, and believing that their happiness is dependent on positive outcomes. If these beliefs are never questioned, especially since society continually reinforces them, there is no way out of feeling uncomfortable with yourself, obsessing over alternate pasts and hypothetical futures

3:21 PM

Pinging @vixiUwU too since Ive never really gone into my thoughts on how pride/arrogance is suffering in depth before (in the two previous posts) (edited)

As far as questioning beliefs, suffering is the result of believing things in an absolute way rather than recognizing that your life experience is completely subjective. Specifically, it results from believing that people are independent agents rather than complex machines.

I have repeatedly mentioned that I certainly believe in absolute truth. I also think that what you're describing is inescapably absolute. A machine is a rudimentary input-output device, it works in a specific and linear way, even if we cannot perceive all of the parameters it runs on. Subjectivity, to me, is an illusion as immaterial as ego. I don't have any suffering regarding these beliefs just because they're absolutes. I also have what I'd describe as a healthy functional pride that isn't blind. I have experienced a couple of instances where my pride has become tangible stubbornness and been a detriment, but I can count those instances on one hand in the three decades of my existence. Whereas questioning myself in my early years resulted only constant worry about my abilities and my place in the world. When I think of all the times I've experienced real and prolonged suffering they boil down to shame for actions that have already happened; and questioning myself too aggressively. They do not stem from absolute beliefs at all. (edited)

Ever heard of a Turing machine? ;P

Computing is my thing, continue.

Well since you seemed to say "we cant be machines because we'd be able to tell", otherwise not sure why you explained that "machines are linear input-output devices" etc. And yes, guilt/shame is usually the most intense form of suffering. Pride/arrogance is not only less intense (as you said, we may even derive pleasure from it) but also tends to affect people with a specific personality. I dont suffer from strong pride/arrogance either (although I used to more so in the past) And as per the explanation given in this teaching, your shame ("questioning my actions") is the result of falsely believing you had the agency to make a different decision that resulted in a better outcome. Same for worry - "I am responsible for what happens through me in the future, so I better not fuck up, because painful outcomes diminish who I am."

Well since you seemed to say "we cant be machines because we'd be able to tell", otherwise not sure why you explained that "machines are linear input-output devices" etc

Oh nononono. We are absolutely meat machines, you misunderstood me.

3:35 PM

I'm saying we're absolute engines.

3:35 PM

Even if we don't understand it.

Ah we're agreed then, lol

Also yes the rest of your argument there seems to be mostly semantic difference. All of that is something I wouldn't put under the general label of pride, it's just something I'd package under the false expectations category.

3:38 PM

That being said: Calling that pride and calling pride out separately when it isn't the cause is what I actually oppose. A strong sense of moderated pride is optimal to me and I'd consider labeling pride as a detriment - as many religions do - to be wholly false and to not understand the full picture.

I think maybe if I said "prideful/pridefulness" instead of "proud/pride", people may have less of a hang-up with it? Haha

The question I'd point out is this: What you're describing isn't pride in the general sense so why use that word?

3:39 PM

Broadly categorizing it, it falls under expectation instead.

3:40 PM

Like the whole "belief" thing roger does, that's fair because there's not really a concise way of describing absolutist concepts in one word. But in this case it feels like active mislabeling because of the knock-on effect of kicking confidence in the teeth as a principle to live by. (edited)

The same reason that the end of suffering is described as "happiness": because it's clear enough what is meant once an explanation is given. In any case, as I said, personally I dont feel like pride/arrogance is an inadequate label for "I deserve to be loved by others for the pleasant outcome Ive created with my own hands." Just like the way Roger uses the word "belief", this is already how I understood the word arrogance before I came across his framework

I actually think that's a dangerous way of interacting with the world. Consider: these teachings are things that are easily spread around. If they are not well-worded in the first place it will inevitably end up causing people suffering. Again I would argue that if there is a fifth "pillar" of suffering, it's actually self-doubt.

Self-doubt is often mentioned and grouped as a subcategory of guilt/shame. Also most people are so disinterested in these teachings that I really dont see any danger of them causing any harm lol

Using Pride means you're telling prospective students to let go of their pride as they understand it. And sometimes they won't have someone to correct them.

3:47 PM

Little harm is still harm! Imagine if I hadn't said anything and one of the 260 lurkers read it and is secretly following your every word! It's not that out of the question, humans are weird. (edited)

Well even pride in the sense of "Im the one who made this happen" still results from a seed that "Im the author of all my thoughts, decisions and actions" which gives rise to the more intense forms of suffering. Just because pride is usually not intense doesnt mean its not caused by an error in our thinking. Although again, its also pointed out that emotional pleasure resulting from positive outcomes that happened through us is not inherently suffering

Telling people to be less prideful is always telling them to question themselves more. When what they really need is high pride, and to only question themselves when they are experiencing negative phenomena. (edited)

As you said, little harm is still harm, and hence pride needs to be called out for what it is ;P Taking ownership over the way your DNA was arranged and the order in which billions of neurons fired in your brain

Whilst I'd say that viewpoint is valid empirically. Pride is an equally inescapable function of our model as Ego itself is.

3:50 PM

Best to use it to moderate high-functioning behaviour pleasurably

I agree! All five forms of suffering are inescapable. Until such times as the underlying beliefs are challenged/questioned (which for most people is never)

Pride in the strictest sense is an emotion which tells you to remain static. Once you have achieved perfect pride in a hypothetical perfect state, you're good to go!

I disagree that pride is "needed", especially once guilt/shame/self-doubt/lack of confidence (based on the same underlying principles) have dissolved

Hence it should only be questioned when you experiencing negative stimuli. That means you have yet to achieve abject perfection presuming you are not subject to uncontrolled random outside input.

Thats essentially saying "suffering is okay as long as it results in pleasant outcomes rather than painful ones" - which is gonna fuel arrogance and expectation

? No I'm saying that suffering should actively knock you out of the pride state and cause a re-evaluation.

Remember, the "goal" of these teachings is not to maximize pleasure and minimize pain. The goal is to dissolve an internal uncomfortableness based on misunderstanding

If you have pride; the emotion which tells you everything is fine and under control; and you have suffering, long term mental strain, usually caused by cognitive dissonance - that means you not only have cognitive dissonance in relation to the thing, but also in relation to the the suffering itself and pride.

3:56 PM

So it should actively at that point be sidestepped.

3:56 PM

That is what healthy management of strong pride looks like. Ignoring it and making rational decisions when it's clear it's not correct.

3:57 PM

Which it isn't if you're hurtin' on the reg'

Just to clarify again - the emotion "hey what happened through me just now is pretty awesome" would be labeled as emotional pleasure rather than suffering in this context. Its pride once it becomes a story about what you made happen and what that means about your worthiness

3:58 PM

"Im allowed to feel worthy now that Ive finally achieved something positive"

3:58 PM

Until your actions result in painful outcomes again

"Im allowed to feel worthy now that Ive finally achieved something positive"

Just to devil's advocate. This is actually weak pride.

3:59 PM

Pride is "I am worthy. Now, and absolutely into the future."

Ah yeah that latter version, as long as its a sense of "worthiness" thats unrelated to how many pleasant things youve achieved, would not be labeled as pride either (edited)

... I'm coming to the sense that what you mean by pride being a problem is actually what I'm referring to when I refer to self-doubt being the issue.

4:01 PM

Which is amusing because I literally view it with the opposite word.

4:01 PM

I don't even see pride-based-on-output being pride.

Yes, although self-doubt is the inverse, even though based on the same principles. "Im unworthy because my actions resulted in painful outcomes"

Pride is "I am ready for this test." [fails test] "No worries I'm still good. I'll pass it next time". It can cause literal issues like that; but it doesn't cause suffering to me.

"I am worthy, now and into the future, independently of this machine's output" is just the "natural state" in the absence of suffering

Self doubt on the other hand is "I need to find pride because I completely lack it."

4:03 PM

Seeking pride is always self-doubting behaviour.

From now on, I shall list the third form of suffering as "pride (in the weak sense)" ;P

I'd still say what you're describing is straight self-doubt, not pride.

4:04 PM

No one prideful goes "My pride is predicated on this thing".

4:04 PM

That's self-doubt.

Once again, theyre inverse to each other. Self-doubt is "Im unworthy because of painful output", pride/arrogance is "Im worthy because of pleasant output." I strongly disagree that no one experiences the latter, lol

I mean sure. But that's not suffering.

4:06 PM

Pride must become self-doubt in order for you to suffer.

It is suffering because its a) based on misunderstanding (just as self-doubt) and b) if its intense enough it does manifest as an uncomfortableness ("I am worthy because of my pleasant output, but no one else recognizes it")

-or anger at cognitive dissonance. Just to be complete. That was a bit reductive.

Well in the future, when I talk about guilt/shame and pride/arrogance, you'll know that Im talking about two inverse manifestations of self-doubt ;)

?? You're describing something in terms of suffering even though it's entirely pleasant?

4:08 PM

Wait do you think smugness is unpleasant?

4:09 PM

It ain't. It's great.

4:09 PM

Even when it's wrong.

4:10 PM

I am great and no one else recognizes it... That isn't suffering.

4:10 PM

I've been in that state.

4:10 PM

It's neither unpleasant nor dissonant.

4:11 PM

It's smug, superior, wrong, sure. But not internally ungratifying.

4:12 PM

And when it fails most humans in that state do not go into a spiral of some kind - they go "Well; that was random chance or whatever".

4:13 PM

That's what real mal-adaptive pride is. The only way for you to go into a spiral requires you to think "Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not perfect in this way." which is doubt.

Once again, whether theres pleasure associated with it or not doesnt come into the question of whether its suffering. We often derive pleasure from expectation too, such as making intricate plans of how to spend our holiday. In fact I think suffering is usually accompanied by some weak sense of pleasure, otherwise the jig would probably be up by now. Even when we contemplate our perceived failures, there may be some sense of "at least Im trying to atone and be a good person from here on out"

4:16 PM

So yes, smugness would fall under pride/arrogance even though it may feel pleasant

Okay okay, so please redefine suffering. I had presumed we had a shared definition but it is clear someway along this route we are not sharing it any longer.

4:17 PM

The definition I was sort of operating off was basically "Unpleasant cognitive dissonance, repeated ad naseum due to mal-adaptive behaviours both instinctual and conditioned."

4:18 PM

And to be clear. That doesn't apply at all to mal-adaptive pride. There was never a point at which I felt dissonance in that state until I allowed the state to stop.

Suffering is an uncomfortableness that results from a misunderstanding of the dynamics of life. This uncomfortableness is usually weak and in the background (hence why pleasure can temporarily cover it up, this would apply for smugness too), but can become very intense especially when triggered by strong painful outcomes. It results from a misunderstanding of the dynamics of life - believing that people are independent agents rather than machines, and believing that outcomes will have a lasting effect on my sense of being whole

This uncomfortableness is usually weak and in the background (hence why pleasure can temporarily cover it up, this would apply for smugness too)

This isn't how brains work.

4:20 PM

Bluntly speaking suffering isn't prolonged.

4:21 PM

Cognitive dissonance is an event.

4:21 PM

A splitting point in thought that cannot be rationalized; specifically.

When I say uncomfortableness, I mean this sort of underlying sense of "this isnt it yet - need to achieve more pleasure"

If someone tells you that doesn't go away when you're not paying attention to it they are wrong or not very self-aware.

4:22 PM

Were you genuinely thinking about your suffering through this discussion for instance? What about when you were formulating responses?

4:23 PM

But anyway I'm being largely pedantic. What you're describing totally is cognitive dissonance. And that doesn't apply to the state of pride.

4:23 PM

There's no sense of "this is not enough" with mal-adaptive pride. (edited)

4:23 PM

More of a sense of "You're all imbeciles." which isn't necessarily painful. (edited)

Yes haha. I can tell that part of me is very involved in proving that Im not an idiot who believes stupid things. My suffering is rarely intense anymore but its definitely still persistently in the background

4:24 PM

"Youre all imbeciles, but you shouldnt be. You should appreciate me because then life would be better (for both of us)" (edited)